German Car Forum

And BMW have not thought about Long Term?
not true.
BMW were already working on their Efficient Dynamics programme when Mercedes-Benz were busy developing a car for the superich, From 2007 when BMW facelifted the 1er and 5er we actually caught the competition out when we started the "Efficient Dynamics" marketing which since it's launch in 2007 is already featured across the whole BMW range , won BMW countless green awards and recognition for it's development in Efficient Dynamics - Mercedes are left trying to catch up , we know for a fact that Daimler shareholders are concerned about the rise of BMW in this area because when it comes down to which premium manufacturer has done more to improve efficiency and c02 levels it's BMW. The company that gets recognised for it's environmental technology is BMW.
Here is another strange decision the Mercedes-Benz S400 Hybrid will not be available for Right hand drive markets , The BMW 7er Hybrid will be available for all markets.

Next years new 5er will not only provide a beautiful looking car and the return of the mid sized segment leader but also an introduction of a mid sized diesel hybrid. A car Mercedes-Benz has become concerned regarding because of the possibility of incentives to European business'es .
True but BMW had talked to Tesla as well and after Rover BMW did not seem keen to get involved with another company that Talks the talk but are dubious if they walk the walk.

Guido is on holiday.
T.

Aerodynamics (drag coefficient) is more than about upright vs. raked grille.

It has much more to do with the air flow at the rear, under the car, around the wheels, and around the grille (whether the air flow enters the grille or not).

And that's what carmakers are working on. Not on the sloppy fronts.

Sloppy front doesn't do much - if all the other things are messy.

All this is about short-terms solutions. Marginal improvement of the current type of cars.

Mercedes is already ahead of that. They think wide and long-term. They might be "lacking" now, because they are not interested in short-term compromise.
But in a few years or even sooner, they'll be there with electric, fuel-cell and DiesOtto models. Moveable air intakes and start-stop won't make any impression against that.

Or they could just stay off the bloody road.

What if it's the car that gets out of the road and hits a pedestrian?

But where does it end? Are governments going to try and cover every possible scenario? The nannying by the state, not just in motoring, but everything, has gotten out of hand. The departments which come up with the rules and regulations in everyday life have to justify their existence, so they are constantly looking for new ways of "improving" things. And people are falling for it.

Frankly it's getting too much. All it's doing is creating a world of zombies who cannot take any responsibility for their own safety.

I totally agree with you on the nannying thing. The govs are stating what we should do, think, buy. Political correctness is the word today, people are told what to think. Terrorism, safety, ecology are justificatig all sorts of contraints for people.

The miracle is that people accept them as natural...

However, increasing the safety standards of cars doesn't fit in that category. It doesn't hinder our freedom, only that of the carmakers, and of that I don't give a sh!t.

If you're hit by a recent car, you may thank the gov for these regulations. For me they are going in the right way. I've driven too many cars whose mirrors are stupidly useless (including mine) to not understand what this is about.


Cars are the most effective weapon of mass destruction ever created. No bomb, no war, no virus ever killed nearly as many people as cars. Every change that diminish their lethal ability has to be welcomed.

This discussion sucks..
From a owners point of view..you rather have a nice looking car than a pedestrian safe one..
Cuase 100% of your ownership will be effected by the design..
And if you are in very bad luck maybe the pedestrian safety will matter to you..

Now MB gives us both..and they put major dollars into making the car GOOD LOOKING..

And BMW doesent.. thats why all new BMW´s have faces like brick walls..

Great..end of the story..!!!

PS
What the hell is efficent dynamics?
Does anyone really know?
Its just a bunch of small things like start stop function,power steering and a gearshift indicator??
Lol.. is this what they put their money on?
Must be mighty mighty expensive....

Start-stop system, active air-intake (closing or opening depending of the air needed by the motor, as the car is more aerodynamic when they're closed), energy recovering while braking, power-steering active only when needed. Depends on the model.

Various little improvements to make the car "greener". And mostly, to make buzz.

^oh i thought it was the second coming of Christ..

No, no no ...

EfficientDynamics is a holistic long-term strategy / program in aim to introduce fuel efficient & greener (less emissions) solutions & tech without compromising the notorious BMW dynamics. Strategy / program introduced under a single trademark: EfficientDynamics.

It's all the tech & solutions contributing to those goals mentioned above. Being that active aerodynamics, new engines & gearboxes, hybrid solutions, electro-drive solutions, hydrogen, fuel-cell and much more. Past, current & future solutions & tech. All that is EfficientDynamics.

The solutions and tech featured right now in BMW, MINI & also soon in RR cars are only the first step. But much more is coming. Step-by-step.

MB was loud - showing fuel cell tech, DiesOtto engine, diesel-hybrids etc to reassure the public (and investors) they are working hard on proper future solutions. But all that tech is not ready yet ... And other carmakers are also working on similar solutions. But they are not as loud as some other carmakers.

I suggest you read this website. At least BMW are working on something good and important, making the future a better place.

BMW EfficientDynamics

^yeah i know..alot of marketing..and surely some really good work ..
But bmw arent alone..and they havent done something spectacular or earth shattering..
As ppl here want to claim..

So..lets just give it a rest allready..

I hate it when we see MB or audi doing something good..there are always some BMW fans that come and tell us thats the wrong thing to do..or a waste of money..
Lets do like BMW , cause that the one and only way..

I say to hell with that.. i like MB´s approach of laying down alot of money for design sake.. i like that more than the inviroment work ( which i know MB is doing aswell)..
Cause im not much for the green hype.. and i know many of you here would rather see a nice looking car than a green car..

But beacuse its BMW it then is of superb importance to be green..

Just give it a rest allready

Its not about earth shattering, its about making the cars more effective in fuel consumption and the cars being better to the world. Its absolutly nothing wrong with that. BMW make green cars and good looking cars, I love it. You may not give a shit but i'm happy BMW are working on something good as long they are continue building fast and fun BMW's.
Also it gives me a opportunity to brag that my 170hp engine is more fuel efficient than A4 or a C-class with similar engine power

That's true. Efficient Dynamics is an excellent programm. BMW did react quicker than the others, they did an excellent job at seeing ahead.

Both Audi and Mercedes were caught off-guard.

However, saying Mercedes dosn't have anything in store is untrue, as in fact they are IMO the best prepared for the long-term.

Its called Bluetec/Blue Efficiency.

They will be forced to introduced some solutions sooner then planned to be competitive -since they do lag behind the rivals. And that will cost them more then eg Lexus & Audi (backed up by Toyota & Volkswagen), or BMW who invested in such programs sooner & more wisely.

That's the point. And I'm just concerned they won't have enough money to do that. Since Daimler's net liquidity & cash reserves are very poor. Much lower than the ones of BMW Group. Toyota Corp & Volkswagen Group.

That's the issue they have to resolve right now. Money issue. And huge costs (either R&D or marketing ones) can be lethal for Daimler ... So they will either be forced to get new (foreign) money (in exchange for new shares in Daimler AG), or reduced the costs - scarifying other projects to put all the resources into competitive green tech. Eg. buying stake in Tesla was one of such moves.

IMO Daimler will be forced to sacrify much more projects than you can imagine right now.
So called "vanity projects" are in peril. Could be Maybach brand as well. And vehicles like Ocean Drive based car, SLR successor, various AMG & BS variants etc.

^ Eni I highly suggest you order Daimler's latest annual/sustainability reports. There are tons of "green" initiatives/projects taking place there now. They've done quite a bit with their blue efficiency program as it is at the moment. Maybe they don't market it as much as BMW, but its there.

Hehehe. I like the looks of every BMW car better than the MB counterpart, exept the X3 vs GLK.

PS
New 5er is going to piss on the new E

^thats cause your tarded..lol...j/k

Just wait till December , let me just say if you are excited at the latest X1 you will be exceptionally pleased with the X3 because that figure is there "3" that is your clue to know that it will be a very exciting SAV it looks taughter with more muscle packed on than the current E83 and it looks fantastic as well.
It will have the BMW "X" bloodline but each model from the X1 through to the X6 will all have a very different design to distinguish each "X" model.
I think the next generation X3 is going to upset the GLK and Q5 because we have had the first generation and we know it's pros and cons as exposed by the GLK and Q5. Now that they have been corrected we have added some very exciting new characteristics to the new X3.
And the top of the range X3 models will receive the latest Six Cylinder turbo charged petrol and diesel engines to really show the X3 at it's maximum.

Both cars have there priorities and with Mercedes-Benz focusing more on the quality aspects and robust engineering to win back previous owners who were shocked by the lack of quality of early W211's.
BMW are aiming on providing the 5er sedan as the only best driving and handling car in the mid executive segment.
At the Ring BMW engineers have already made sure the car runs off the E-Klasse and the Jaguar XF. With now a more robust quality development programme has been underway.
The new 5er is equally stylish, as a recent design meeting where the interior choices and exterior colours were laid out as well as the gorgeous alloy wheel designs that customers will be able to specify.

As for the marketing I am engaged in a sort of seventies , eighties European spy thriller to showcase the car - look at this DJ Hell video to get an idea of look and feel although without the ahem X-rated visuals. But plenty of split screens , grainy feel , dark suits with sunglasses , birds-eye views of cities and the only modern element being the F10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeGgN2aVekg

I've always been fascinated with this aspect of new car development. Care to give a little more detail as to the meaning of this and what this means for cusomters? Is this is exclusive to the F10/11 or all future BMW products in development from here on out. I was almost afraid BMW had forgotten about building cars durable to last a few hundred thousand miles. Though most don't keep cars for that long it inspires great confidence to know your car will last you hundreds of thousands of miles if asked to perform long haul duty. I'm also aware of the "lifetime fill" lubricants BMW uses for a lot of the internals such as gearbox oil, etc. It seems as if they have built the cars with a predetermined expiration date in mind. Surely no lubricant lasts a "lfietime" so if you have anything to share on this as well that would be fantastic!!

I don't think that's very fair to say. Although I've found these recent generation of BMW's to be unattractive for the most part, I think the new E is as well unattractive, and the next generation 5'er seems to be a step in the right (styling at least) direction. Styling is subjective anyway of course.

Props to M-B for putting forth more $$ to try and keep a nice front end though, they almost succeeded IMO, unfortunately the Ped regs have still affected it in comparison to how I'm certain it would have looked without the new rules. You lose that nice and sexy rake for a more upright, and IMO cheaper appearing front end. This is a good chance for other car makers to take advantage.

If anything looks like a wall of bricks it is the new E class with it's boxy design.

Haha, good point, but I think MB has done a better job at hiding the very high front. BMW solves the problem with the pig face, hoping that no one will notice. It works well on the 7-series but the kidneys need so be shrunk a good deal for the 5-series and even more for the 3-series.