German Car Forum

Adds weight? Yes. Adds "a lot" of weight as on the same level as 4x4? No.


And replaces it with the fun of driving an M DCT. In case you haven't tried it, I suggest having a go in an M3 and flicking the right paddle into the next gear whilst the rev needle is passing 8,000 rpm.


The key is "option".

a. So how much weight is okay? and who gets to decide how much is okay? You? BTW modern AWD is not that heavy.

b. AWD replaces it with the fun of driving a AWD car. There are lot of fun AWD cars. And no I haven't driven DCT, but I have driven SMGII, and no it was not anywhere as involving as a proper manual - especially if you know how to heel-toe properly.

c. No one (at least not me) wanted AWD as standard either. I said I would have no issue if AWD was an option in the next M5 (not if it was the only option). And no I wouldn't get the option even if it was available. I even ordered and waited for few months for my M3 instead of driving one from the lot so I could get one with out power seats. My issue here is the hypocrisy of the so called 'purists' who take it upon themselves to preach what is right/wrong for M.

Yes. Me.

I know how to heel and toe properly. It doesn't mean I don't prefer to have M DCT though.

So then why are you wasting your time arguing about it?


There is no "hypocrisy" about it. Four wheel drive (as well as auto gearboxes) is not desireable in an M car. End of story. I fail to see the hypocrisy.

Yea I wonder where the hypocrisy is in driving an autogear box equipped M car and saying it is not desirable?

Not desireable for you. Others might have another opinion (I don't though).
As for the extra weight xDrive adds....that's no more than 80 kg. Not that bad when you have around 600 hp in the new M5.

BTW, SMG and DCT are auto gearboxes too, period. When you have a clutch, you have a manual.

M DCT is not an auto with a torque convertor (i.e. a performance sapping device).

Many people on here have made it clear the M5 should have the DCT gearbox, but would baulk at the M5 having an auto box. I really fail to see what point you're trying to make with M DCT.

How do F1 cars change gear exactly?

Just because some people would like a 4x4 M5 it doesn't mean that they are correct and BMW should build it.

And even YOU don't share that opinion! So you're playing devil's advocate then? Playing devil's advocate is the most ridiculous position to be in, in ANY discussion. It's a coward's position and the easy way out. It's like saying, "I agree with you, but lets assume x, y and z". No. Lets not assume x. y and z.

I seriously doubt that if the F10 had 4WD it would only add 80kg to the weight.


Amazing Klier. How did you find out how much hp the F10 M5 is going to have? You really should reveal your sources.


I really do not know what point you're making.

OK, lets say I agree that M DCT is an auto. It doesn't change anything in that if the M5 is released with a torque convertor auto = bad. M DCT = good.


At the end of the day Sunny, Klier and ruella. The M5 is not going to have 4x4. So it looks like BMW agree with me. Looks like if you want better traction you'll have to go to Audi or Porsche. See ya.

BTW, SMG and DCT are auto gearboxes too, period. When you have a clutch, you have a manual.[/quote]


The Sequential Manual Gearbox, aka Sequential M Gearbox ( since, for now, the only US BMW to have SMG-II is the E46 M3 ). It's not an automatic, and its not a manual. It's a sort of mix between the two. There's no torque convertor ( like a manual ), yet the driver can opt to have the onboard computers change gears for him ( like an automatic ). Oh, and there's no need for a clutch -- SMG-II does it all itself via hydraulics. OK. So picture a manual, but without a clutch pedal. Instead of the conventional H-pattern, SMG-II gives drivers something different. Drivers can still opt to row their own gears ( hitting the rev limiter just like a normal manual ), but changing gears happens in the blink of an eye by pulling back or forward on the "shifter". 80milliseconds. No human could possibly change that fast. Oh, and if you have to downshift, you'll even get a little throttle blip as SMG-II matches revs. Heel-toe driving gone, perfect shifts every time.

^ It's in between, but more auto than manual.

Betty:

- AWD systems are not that heavy anymore. 100 kg should be the absolute max.
- I said A-R-O-U-N-D 600 hp, and that's just an estimated guess. Around. And since you always want to catch people on the smallest details, I'd say learn to read. I will not be far off anyways, I consider 570 hp around 600 too.
- lastly, everybody knows the M5 will be RWD and RWD only. The AWD thing was just for the sake of arguement for crying out loud. I wouldn't ever want to see the M5 in AWD.
What I do want though, is BMW making an Nissan Skyline R35 type of car with twin turbo and AWD. I want that.

M5 need a DCT and not a regular Automatic. DCT is more efficient and sportier and a part of M trademark.

Do the people who are not interested in reading 10 pages about the F10 M5 gearbox have to read all these comments when there is a topic for this?.

There are auto boxes with out torque converter (like the one in SL63). As far as driver involvement is concerned a DCT is not significantly different from an autobox with tiptronic function.

The point I am making is the exposing the hypocrisy in advocating one tech (DCT) that adds weight and takes away from the driver involvement but offer other benefits (quicker shifts) while admonishing another tech (AWD) that also adds weight and takes away driver involvement while offering other benefits (more grip).

And what does that have anything to do with it? I can as well turnaround and ask "How many driven wheels do WRC cars have?"

And apologies to the rest for continuing this rather pointless discussion, this will be my last post on the topic.

Couldnt agree more.....

All I said was how did you know how much HP the M5 is going to have. Why are you banging on about whether you said "around"?


Amazing. So you're wasting your time arguing about something that you don't think will happen anyway? That is funny.

It's not hypocritical at all. I prefer M DCT to a normal manual. I prefer rear wheel drive to 4x4. What's hypocritical about that? It's just a preference. End of story. Thankfully, for the moment, BMW agree with me.



Everything. People were bringing up DCT as if to say not having a clutch takes something away from the car.

WRC cars have 4x4 because a rally takes place over loose gravel and dirt, mainly. How many times do M5's get driven on these surfaces?

Exactly. A completely flawed example.

So, looks like it's another victory for Betty. It's just getting too easy.

The same way AWD is Rurella's preference. And would have been end of story except your need to preach to other's what others should or should not prefer.




The driver skill needed to drive an DCT is not significantly diffrent from driving an automatic with tiptronic function, so please don't fool your self you are driving a manual. You are not. And yes, driving a car with out a clutch pedal does take away from the driver involvement at least more than a well set up AWD will. Even wondered what will be more involving? an R8 with manual or a M3 with DCT? I bet 9/10 will pick R8. I also bet an M5 spends more time on rain and snow where AWD has a tangible benefit than on a race track where DCT has a tangible benefit. And as for the juvenile chest thumping, wow, real mature.

Ok folks, enough of the argy-bargy - back on topic to the next generation 5er and M5...

Thanks...

Yes, plaese!!

New photos on BMWblog.com :






http://www.bmwblog.com/2009/10/19/an...-bmw-5-series/

Damn, I can't wait to see this car.

Me neither!

What are you talking about? Why are you wittering on about "involvement". I don't prefer M DCT because I think it's more involving.

You see you've jumped on my statement that I don't like auto's and assumed it's because I prefer more involvement. There is a time and a place (and the right car) for a manual gearbox, such as the Z4 M I had or the Boxster S I own, but I think the M3 is better suited to M DCT. Obviously, otherwise I would have saved myself a few grand and specced my M3 with a manual gearbox.

So I suggest you stop ASSUMING what I am thinking and using that as a counter argument, otherwise you'll continue to look foolish, as in this case.

Martin is probably going to be "well-miffed" to see us ignoring his request. Sorry.

The M5 now has 507 hp, the X5 M has 555 hp and the new M5 will have at least X5 M power. That would be around 600 hp then, when you keep in mind KERS rumors and stuff

And, we're all wasting our time here on this forum, but I do that because I like it here Same counts for you most probably.

From this angle I have to agree with the people who think that it looks like E90 brother..

If you are going to come up with a rough figure then why not say around "550hp". You chose "600hp" to make your opinion more credible.

Dude, you don't have to respond to everything I write. I am not an insider with inside info, I'm just a BMW fan for 20+ years. If I say 600 hp, I say 600 hp. You don't have to make a big thing out of it, you can do that for the posts Scott makes.
555 hp + KERS = around 600 hp. It will not be less than 'around 600', because the RS6 already has 580 hp. The old RS6+ had 480 hp when the M5 had 400 hp, and BMW came with the E60 507 hp. Something similar will happen now again.

Also, Betty, my opinion doesn't need to be credible. It's my opinion after all....what I think.